The two of us grew up in an era where there was a division of labor in our homes. Usually, the man/husband/dad did the messy inside and outside stuff—dishes, garbage, fixing the toilet and changing light bulbs, yardwork and maybe grilled—and cleaned the grill afterward.

The women/wife/mother, many of whom stayed home to rear the children or worked part-time, got the stereotypical female work—wash, iron, clean, cook, set the table, garden, grocery shop—unless the couple did it as a pair (Margaret’s late husband liked to do the grocery shopping  and Barbara’s former husband liked to do the wash and make coffee each morning). But we also handled most carpools, cared for a sick child and supervised homework, except if we were terrible at math or grammar and handed that off to a spouse who was better in those subjects.

Some of us had some help, but only periodically.

Younger couples (both of whom typically work), including our kids often did away with such stereotypical roles if they had a partner or spouse. So did many LBGQT partners. We’ve seen this firsthand. When Barbara’s mother asked her younger daughter if she made breakfast for her husband each morning before he went to work, she replied frankly but sweetly, “Absolutely, not. I go to work, too.” Moreover, she informed her grandmother in a loving way that her spouse was capable of making his own breakfast! Her grandmother was surprised. That generation had rules that were clearly fixed. Barbara’s mother had even taken a course on making a marriage work when an undergrad in the Midwest in the late 1930s. She was surprised, again, that her granddaughters never had such a course.

The roles of men and women in the home today have bled. It’s just a fact that more men cook and more women grill, mow the lawn, unclog toilets, and load the dishwasher, particularly now that there are great YouTube videos on how to do so.

But have couples today—whether married or living together or even spending lots of time together–really become equal partners? We went to some experts.

Jamie Schenk DeWitt, MA, LMFT, a Los Angeles-based marriage and family therapist,  https://www.jamieschenkdewitt.com, notes that among the heterosexual parent couples that she sees in her private practice there has been an increase in the level of physical and emotional disconnect. “Although these women and their husbands admit to more of shared workload than their parents and grandparents, most of the workload still falls on the woman, whether she’s in the workforce or not,” says Schenk DeWitt.

Because Covid-19 put the spotlight on the equality of the labor dynamic, we became interested in interviewing the editors of a book that crossed our desks, Creating Equality at Home: How 25 Couples Around the World Share Housework and Childcare, from Francine M. Deutsch and Ruth A. Gaunt (Cambridge University Press, 2020). During Covid-19, this was a hot topic especially when many couples were stuck inside together quarantining and, in many cases, both working from home and sometimes sharing or not care of children also at home. Add to the mix the child rearing and schooling if there were little ones running around. Without a clear rejiggering of an equal division of labor and boundary setting, experts predicted there might be a flurry of divorces once many became vaccinated and the virus abated.

And now in our post-Covid-19 lives, Schenk DeWitt points out that families are ramping back up with a fierce intensity of responsibilities and activities. “Couples are busy and spread thin. As much as women continue to fight for gender equity at work and home, it seems that — at least among heterosexual couples — there’s a lack of balance that persists regardless of age, income or workloads, which leans more toward traditional, stereotypical roles.”  Schenk DeWitt’s patients’ experiences reflect the findings of  a 2020 Gallup Poll of heterosexual couples, she says, which confirmed that “women handle most of the domestic workload including cooking, cleaning, childcare and doing the laundry.”

So, have we really moved forward?

Eve Rodsky, the author of the bestselling book Fair Play, attributes this discrepancy in a division of labor to an issue of time and an inherent belief that women have an infinite amount of it compared to men, so they also end up shouldering the burden of all the “invisible work” involved in keeping a family system going such as planning the social calendar, paying bills, buying gifts, and doing the thank you note writing, for example.

Whether it is an issue of time, stereotypical gender norms, cultural and intergenerational belief systems, as well as economic and educational constraints, a continued focus on shifting the balance is needed to help these couples regain connection and harmony. Some ways to execute this change is to share your feelings about the imbalance with your partner, as well as devise a new family system that helps you redistribute the workload. Eventually, you will feel lighter by being less encumbered and hopefully be able to have an interdependent dynamic with your spouse that fosters greater connection, intimacy and happiness.

For the Deutsch and Gaunt book, the editors and a team of researchers interviewed 25 couples in 22 countries. All have found a way to create equality at home. And the main reason this matters, the editors say, is that women are only more likely to succeed in the paid outside work force if there’s more equality at home.

We talked by phone with Deutsch, a professor emerita at Mt. Holyoke College, who’s also author of Halving it All: How Equally Shared Parenting Works (Harvard University Press). Following are her edited, condensed responses.

Question: Are habits almost set in stone based on what they saw their parents do at home during their childhood? Or can there be a marked shift when a couple starts to live together or marry today?

Answer: Habits are definitely not fixed in stone. Parental influence is important in giving a person a feeling about the possible divisions of labor. A number of women, specifically, don’t want to do what their mothers did. That being said, it’s one influence when people marry. Another often depends on their job.

Q: How can someone really know how much their partner might help—or not—from living together or in the early days of marriage? Do they need to discuss options before marriage?

A: It’s very difficult to know how things will evolve. Co-habiting couples tend to divide things much more evenly than those who marry. In addition, whether married or not, the shift from not having children to having children is usually a huge turning point that may result in a shift to more traditional roles. This tends to be true all around the world but doesn’t imply that it’s true for everyone. Those who want children but hope to maintain equality have to be very explicit.

In the book, the wife in a Swedish couple was ambivalent about having kids because she didn’t want to give up her career and get stuck in a traditional role. She and her future husband had several conversations, and it was when he agreed to be very involved in raising the child and sharing labor, that she agreed to have children together. And he has been involved!

Q: Did you find most couples agree about what percentage of “work” they take on if asked and separately from their spouse?

A: There’s typically a bias in which each thinks they deserve more credit than the other person gives them, no matter the actual division. It reflects that we tend to remember more of what we did than what someone else did. One couple in the book joked that they each did 60% of the work.

Q: Do you agree with one of your interviewee’s statements, “It’s different because I’m the loud-mouthed Feminist?” Is it helpful to be louder about wants over the long-term, or does that backfire?

A: First, I think she was joking. What makes a difference is being clear about your expectations. What doesn’t help—and I’ve seen and heard this—when some women think their husbands aren’t stepping up to the plate, they end up exploding. They might shout, “Why aren’t you doing more?” Or, “This isn’t fair.” Naturally, the husbands want the storm to calm so they step up a little and do more, but it doesn’t last. They didn’t establish a principle but simply reacted.

The women who get their husbands to stay with the tasks are more likely to calmly sit their husbands down and say, “Let’s share this together.” Sometimes, it takes a number of conversations. Of course, there are couples where nobody has to say anything, it happens.

Q: How hard is it to renegotiate roles after a few years or many due to health or job changes such as a promotion and more responsibility, longer hours, travel, etc.?

A: In my research, I found that many things can trigger change—a new job, having a second child, a pandemic. When circumstances like COVID-19 happen, it can create an opportunity for change.

Q: And what happens when there is change. For example, what happens to equitable household roles when one part of the couple stops working or cuts back? Are they “expected” to take on more work once they are home or have more free time?

A: Yes, on average, they take on more if one loses a job, etc. But it’s also gender related. If men lose a job, they do more but not as much as women who lose a job. Women are still more prone to feel responsible for household labor when they available for it.

Q: What is the best way to show appreciation if your partner goes beyond the usual call of duty? And do you point this out every time they do so or what?

A: Every couple has their own way of showing appreciation. Although appreciation is generally a good thing in a marriage, we have to be aware of a double standard of praise and criticism. There’s a tendency for men to get more credit for doing things women do routinely. “What a great father he is!” because he diapered the baby. It’s a complicated thing. It’s really not equality if one partner of the couple gets more praise. It has to work both ways.

Q: How often does the disparity in the amount of labor at home lead to more than little skirmishes but major conflict and even dissolution of a union?

A: I can’t give you a percentage, but the division of household labor can be a major conflict in a marriage, especially when there’s a “slacker” husband who sits on the couch no matter what the wife does. It’s even worse if she’s bringing in half the income and he isn’t doing his share. I haven’t studied traditional marriages where women stay home and men go to work, but I do think those types of marriages are dwindling.

Q: What are some of the biggest conflicts couples face? What is clean enough, for example, as a standard?

A: Cleanliness is certainly a big issue. Generally, women have higher standards. Also, men may resort to a “strategy of incompetence.” By doing a  job poorly, they can eventually get out of doing that task—such as doing the laundry or picking up the kids at daycare. We heard of a machinist husband who ruined the wash because he said he wasn’t good with the equipment, even though he was used to dealing with machinery.

Q: Do you see a difference in the division of labor with younger couples today and, if so, do religion, economics, jobs, or other factors contribute?

A: Yes, we’re trending toward a more equal division, though we’re not there yet. Attitudes are definitely changing. And there are so many reasons why.

Q: What are the five key factors that will determine equality success?

A: First, couples need to eliminate a gender bias toward women making compromises in their work lives while men go full steam ahead. Both need to compromise to accommodate equality and especially parenting. Men will take a promotion without talking it over, but more women will turn it down for the family. We found couples where men turn down promotions, too, which may mean less money but will mean a more equal family life.

Second, they must communicate their expectations. Third, equal sharers reject “essentialism,” or the belief that men and women have fundamentally different natures and that women are better nurturers, so they need to do more parenting, for example. Fourth, men have to feel responsible for care of the home and not have their total identity tied up in their job. And fifth, women need an identity that isn’t totally tied up in motherhood and gatekeeping or being the No. 1 super parent! They shouldn’t subtly or overtly discourage their husbands from taking care of the kids or doing the cooking or cleaning.

And, if we added a sixth, it would be having a group of like-minded friends they socialize with, so the same philosophy is shared, seen and heard.